According to James Baldwin, the demoralization of a Black person in America begins in early childhood.
The writer and activist famously illustrated his point during a televised debate on Feb. 18, 1965, with conservative intellectual William F. Buckley Jr. The skilled orator delivered a stark message about the oppression of marginalized people in a way that resonated with the audience.
“It comes as a great shock, around the age of 5 or 6 or 7, to discover the flag to which you have pledged allegiance, along with everyone else, has not pledged allegiance to you,” Baldwin said during the proceedings. “It comes as a great shock to discover that [actor] Gary Cooper killing off the Indians, when you were rooting for Gary Cooper, that the Indians were you.”
That is just one of several memorable moments from the 1965 event at the Cambridge Union in England. Chicago audiences can watch a re-enactment in Timeline Theatre Company’s play, “Debate: Baldwin vs. Buckley.” A collaboration with the american vicarious group and the Theatre School at DePaul University, the production runs through March 2 at the school’s Courtelyou Commons.
The topic of the debate was, “Is the American Dream at the expense of the American Negro?”
Beyond showcasing talented actors and intriguing dialogue from 60 years ago, the performance has relevance today. It inspires interrogation of the current political moment, amid Donald Trump’s second presidency; the dismantling of diversity, equity and inclusion initiatives; plans for the mass deportation of immigrants; and rollback of protections for transgender people.
The american vicarious nonprofit first presented “Debate” in New York City in 2020, following the murder of George Floyd.
“Everything that is talked about in the debate is still relevant,” said the group’s founding artistic director, Christopher McElroen, who also directs the play. “I don’t know if it’s possible to achieve the American Dream without it being at the expense of somebody in this current moment. And that is part of the rhetoric that led to [Trump’s] return to office, is this idea that somebody is taking something from you, thus hindering your pursuit of the American Dream.”
Baldwin and Buckley’s debate occurred during the Civil Rights Movement, which shored up affirmative action, a workplace discrimination ban and other legal protections recently revoked. Their conversation was less than a year removed from the 1964 Civil Rights Act, and several months away from the Voting Rights Act of 1965. While Baldwin was advocating for the advancement of Black citizens, Buckley was building a new conservative movement by, in part, founding the National Review conservative magazine.
Facing off against Baldwin, Buckley said Black Americans were held back by their own failure to take advantage of opportunities. It’s an argument still employed today, said DePaul University associate history professor Colleen Doody.
“In this whole debate over DEI and affirmative action, Buckley would say that those things don’t recognize the power of the free market,” she said. “That any sort of giving a leg up to somebody on the basis of their race or gender is getting in the way of the free market.”
But that doesn’t take into consideration the effects of slavery, segregation, redlining and urban renewal on Black communities today, Doody said.
“Baldwin makes this really powerful argument about the long-term consequences of generations of African Americans not being able to earn wealth while working,” she said. “He is making an argument that American capitalism has been built on the backs of African Americans, and African Americans did not benefit at all.”
And the advancement of some Black people should not obscure the job insecurity, homelessness and poverty that persists, said Symone Johnson, assistant professor of African and Black diaspora studies at DePaul.
“Those experiences are still quite prevalent in our communities,” she said. “And I think it’s easy to dismiss because we segregate Black communities from white communities, and white people are afraid to go to Black communities to see what’s actually going on.”
Furthermore, while both working-class white and Black neighborhoods are struggling with the loss of manufacturing jobs, a political divide remains, Doody said.
“I think Trump’s conception of the working class tends to be very white,” she said. “And I think there is a sense among many of those workers that what the government is doing is trying to help minorities and immigrants and not white workers.”
From his early opposition to civil rights for Black Americans, Buckley’s views changed over time to be more supportive of racial progress. And scholars say that the intellectual, who called Trump a “demagogue” back in 2000, supported a very different brand of conservatism than that preached by the current president.
“Trump does not fit the definition of a conservative in a lot of ways,” Doody said. “For example, he is not an advocate of an unfettered free market when he talks about using tariffs to limit foreign trade. I’m not sure if the term is populist, but the ideology of his supporters is quite different than the conservatism of somebody like William Buckley.”
Both Doody as well as the play’s director, Christopher McElroen, said they doubted that Baldwin and Buckley’s debate could take place in today’s political climate. Even the DePaul students working on the play were amazed by the men’s civility, according to TimeLine Theatre’s resident dramaturg, Maren Robinson.
“None of them felt like they had ever seen anything close to a debate that wasn’t either scripted sound bites or name-calling,” Robinson said. “This concept of someone being able to speak at length and be polite to each other was something they felt was completely outside the realm of their experience of American politics thus far.”
Dialogue among audience members is encouraged, as a facilitated discussion takes place after each show. Robinson said she hopes the production inspires people to think deeply about race in America.
“It’s much easier to want to change the history books than to feel the damage that is part of the origin of America, that the harm of having enslaved persons is actually in the makeup of our nation,” she said. “And we still haven’t grappled with it.”